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So, what do they come for, if it's not for teaching English?
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david1978 -



Quote:

A male typically should be getting stuck in to his career after 25 - building it up in his 30's
and at the peak of his earning powers in his 40's. Any male who finds himself teaching in China
after the age of 30 can consider himself a failure in life (Thanks Mrs Thatcher for the quote :-)
).

This statement is incongruent with the economies of post-industrial nations. It is inconceivable
for anyone to be "stuck in to his career after 25" (interesting choice of words) when in the
specialized, service-sector economies of the West, a Bachelors degree has significantly dropped in
value. In today's economy it is a given that to have a career one must have a professional degree,
e.g., JD, MD, MBA, CPA, and so on. Let's be generous and say that the average male student in the
U.S. completes his undergrad program in a timely schedule to receive his BA at 22 years of age (in
reality 24 is the average age for males), and let's say that this student went onto graduate
school immediately following the completion of his undergrad degree without taking any time off,
and completed his graduate degree in a timely schedule of 3 or 4 years, depending on the
profession (longer for Ph.D candidates), in reality, then, the average male should be 25-26 years
old when he gets his entry level job. But this is the most ideal scenario, reality is always more
complicated.

The quote you posted above reflects an era where getting a BA was still something of an
achievement. It was also an era where people rarely traveled and had children by 25. However, the
demands of today's market place are vastly different than Thatcher's era. We, i.e., those of us
who are under 30 but over 25, are not getting married or having kids, and we're typically in
school far longer. Therefore, if you insist on judging people's worth based on their professional
standing, add 10 years to your figures for a more accurate picture of post-modern society.



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ipsi() -

Note: I'm assuming you're in the US as I don't have any proof to the contrary.

David, that's pretty insane if that's the standard in America. I'm about to graduate at the end of
this year with my two undergraduate degrees at the age of 21. If I wanted to do a post-graduate
programme, that would take another year for honours, then an additional one or two for masters. Or
I could not do that, and still likely get a decent job in New Zealand. And if I had done only one
degree I would have already graduated and be out and working, at the age of 20. Even then, worst
case scenario would be 22 for a masters, which seems to be quite unnecessary over here and only
really needed for a few specialised areas.

Man. Seems to be excessively hard in the States...










david1978 -

@ ipsi():

You're right: the educational requirements the U.S. economy places on the average person are high,
but I suspect the same is to be found in most post-industrial nations, e.g., Europe, Japan,
Israel, etc. This is largely due to free markets, of course. There was a time when a robust U.S.
manufacturing base provided Americans with dignified jobs, union protection, benefits, and so on.
However, with the increasing rise of technology, and the wave of outsourcing to "Chindia," the
U.S. moved from an economy based on industry to one based on services, e.g., lawyers, accountants,
investment bankers, doctors, etc. These jobs require professional degrees which demand a person
spend a considerably longer time in school than previous. Simply put. today it is inconceivable to
expect a six figure salary with a BA; even from a top school. Moreover, most students major in
subjects like political science, art history, English, in other words, subjects that have no
practical application. This is why I think the original comment that a person should be "stuck in
to his career at 25" is misinformed. At 25 most people are still figuring things out. I recently
heard a sociologist say 25 is the new 21; I agree.










ipsi() -

It possibly is. It's definitely not in New Zealand, however. While you'd be very unlikely to get a
six-figure salary with a B.A., that's more to do with the fact that a B.A. is regarded as "Bugger
All". Having said that, I don't think anyone in New Zealand will be walking into a job with a
six-figure salary, no matter what their qualification. A few years with experience, maybe. A
bachelor's degree will be fine though. With regards to Accounting and Legal professionals, most
start their career at age 21-22 or so over here. Though they're not registered professionals, but
are working in that area and are planning to become registered within a few years. I think it's at
least two more years of working before you become a C.A., and I'm not sure about taking the bar
exam as a lawyer.

The other thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that you're talking about BAs exclusively, or
at least implying that they're extremely common. I guess that's because American Universities
don't let you do anything else until you've done a B.A.? At least, I've heard something along
those lines. Whereas here, the majority of Professionals won't have a B.A. I certainly won't, but
I will have a B.C.A., and a B.Sc. Indeed, Accountants spend only an extra year at University
beyond what a B.A. student would spend, as do Lawyers.

I gotta say, if that is the case, it seems really bizzare. I'd be a bit annoyed to be forced to
study a B.A. before moving on to whatever I want to do for a career.










Crivens200 -

Interesting information there David, which I think I agree with to an extent on further
reflection, though I think around 25 should be the latest starting point for anyone intending on
pursuing a career along the lines of one of the professions. Any older than this and potential
employers really won't take you seriously, especially if the candidate has been teaching English
in China for any longer than 12 months.

Actually, I have a lot of German friends and they all seem to spend a longer time in education and
start their careers a lot later - sometimes late 20's early 30's.

Personally I don't see the value of further education after 25 - I think 3 or 4 years of practical
experience after 25 is infintely more valuable than further studies.

Actually, anyone who comes to China and is slightly ambitious maybe should be looking to start up
their own thing. There are still a lot of opportunties here for anyone with a bit of drive and
common sense. Who wants to spend 40 years of their life staring at a computer screen in an office
working with a bunch of people you don't want anything to do with after 5pm?

I guess this brings us back to the point of the original question - why do they come here? I'd
rather teach English in China than spend 40 years of my life in an office . . . . . hell I'd
rather be dead than choose that path in life.










david1978 -



Quote:

Actually, I have a lot of German friends and they all seem to spend a longer time in education and
start their careers a lot later - sometimes late 20's early 30's.

Your friends are typical, Crivens. Also keep in mind that we haven't even discussed the fact that
people are not getting married or having children thus feeling no great urgency to make a lot of
money. It's likely that your parents, like mine, had you by their mid to late twenties. But who
today has a family at 25 or even 30?










david1978 -

@ ipsi():

You're correct: in the U.S. a BA is a prerequisite to any professional degree. You cannot get an
MS in accounting, an MBA, a JD, etc, without completing a BA first. After the BA we have to take a
standardized test such as the LSAT, the MCAT, or the GMAT whose score will determine what tier
grad program we will go to. With that said, the solace lies in knowing that when you do finally
graduate and are ready to begin work in your late 20s or early 30s, you get a handsome six figure
starting salary which usually also includes a handsome yearly bonus and benefits.










ipsi() -

Interesting. I have to say, I think I prefer the way it works over here, which is that you get out
and working as soon as possible. I assume it costs money for the BA and then another ungodly sum
for the Professional Degree? And given that you're still technically students while studying for
your professional degree, I assume you retain the average standard of living for a student (i.e.
piss-poor)?

Then again, starting out with a six-figure salary would be damn nice. Hmm. Food for thought either
way.










david1978 -

Student loans are a whole other matter! The cost of tuition in a top private university is
obscene. I'll be starting law school in the fall semester of 2008 and I feel dizzy just thinking
about how much it's going to cost me.










ipsi() -

So you *need* that six figure salary to pay for the cost of getting it in the first place. Awesome

Just for comparison, Domestic Students pay around NZ$6,000 a year in tuition at my University
(which, given how small New Zealand is, is at the same level as the rest), with another NZ$1000 or
so for Textbooks, and up to around NZ$4,500 in living costs, for a total of around NZ$11,500 a
year, meaning worst-case scenario you end up with a NZ$46,000 student loan after four years. Which
can be reduced if you do the very sensible thing of living at home, to around NZ$28,000. And it's
interest-free assuming you stay in New Zealand after graduating.

Admittedly, the cost varies depending on what you study. BA students pay less, Law and Science
students pay more, etc. Doctors and Dentists and the like pay even bigger sums. But while it seems
big to me, I've got a strange feeling you're going to be a bit jealous












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