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roddy -

Discussions like this frequently end up with the question 'but what does fluent mean?' On one hand
I find it annoying as it's not the real question. However, I can also see that without the
definition of what is meant by fluent, or in this case 'totally fluently' and 'to totally master',
the question itself is tricker to answer.

For me, it's being able to handle all general situations that any (educated?) member of the
population can expect to deal with, with virtually no effort on your part or the part of the
listeners. It doesn't mean absolutely no effort as even native speakers will have communication
failures at times due to accents (I've had major communication problems with cab drivers in York
and chip shop staff in Glasgow), unfamiliar vocab, hangovers, etc. I'm thinking shopping,
discussing news, relationships,etc. It does not include anything that a native speaker would
normally expect to do only after training / acquiring particular knowledge - that, for me, goes
off into the realm of professional competence, not linguistic fluency.

Is embracing a Chinese mindset necessary? I don't think so, it's possible to be speaking damned
fine Chinese and still breaching every cultural taboo you come across. I think the course of
learning the language is going to involve coming to understand it - I'd certainly hope so - but
you can still speak Chinese and act foreign.

To speak to the original question - I believe it's entirely possible. It's only a language after
all, not a transcendent state of being. However, to dwell on total mastery as a goal is (or would
be for me at least) very discouraging. You're much better off measuring yourself against where you
were six months ago, and where you want to be in another six months.



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djwebb2004 -

I would like to master Chinese as much as Germans/Dutch/Scandinavians master English, but it is a
tall order. On the question of "fluency", it is an awkward word, as it only means "flowing" and
not "broken" French/English/Chinese/whatever. The focus is on the flowing and easy nature of the
language produced, and not on its native or near-native quality. And Chinese 流利 has the same
meaning. So, according to one definition, "fluent" Chinese could be "conversational Chinese" if
most ordinary topics for conversation could be discussed in a non-halting, easy-flowing way.
[Actually, I think "conversational Chinese" is quite hard to attain; not at all the same as
conversational French or Spanish: so I wouldn't want to put down people with conversational
Chinese, like myself!] But to get to the stage where you can read books without the dictionary....
ie read fluently, as well as speak fluently - that is hard!










wrbt -



Quote:

For me, it's being able to handle all general situations that any (educated?) member of the
population can expect to deal with, with virtually no effort on your part or the part of the
listeners

Yup, and I'm not even sure on the educated part. If someone from China came to the United States
and was able to sound exactly the same as a school dropout who works at the local convenience
store I'd surely assume they were born and raised in the United States. That must qualify as
fluent.

I also don't think fluency has anything to do with sounding indistinguishable from a native
speaker, as I've had college professors teaching advanced sciences who have lived in the United
States for over 40 years but still have slight Eastern European accents... they are surely fluent
in English.










carlo -

I once read about a standard of fluency called "High Acceptability", which kind of means that you
are not immediately identifiable as a non-native speaker by native speakers.

This is interesting, because there are accents that are neither fluent nor grammatically perfect
but are not associated with "foreignness" (eg, child speak). It would seem that phonology is more
important than vocabulary or fluency for passing this 'test'. Of course most learners don't mind
having some trace of a foreign accent, but nobody wants to sound like a five-year old, so
phonology by itself won't take you very far.

Incidentally, I maybe have (?) met someone who was once involved in intelligence work. And yes,
this person spoke Italian (and his native language) with no accent whatsoever. So I'm pretty sure
that with the right kind of motivation and training it can be done. Maybe next time I should ask
him to jump from the BOC building in Pudong.










djwebb2004 -



Quote:

I once read about a standard of fluency called "High Acceptability", which kind of means that you
are not immediately identifiable as a non-native speaker by native speakers.

Well, I don't think I will reach that particular definition of High Acceptability, but I find now
that Chinese people can understand what I am saying, which is better than the very first time I
arrived in China and I spoke Chinese to someone and she thought I was speaking English!! Also
Chinese friends who are used to my accent can understand everything I am saying but I get the
sneaky feeling that it is partly because they are used to me and my accent that they can
understand so much of what I am saying; I don't think an average peasant would understand quite as
much. I suppose I will settle for being well understood by educated Chinese people who are
generally a little more attuned to foreigners' Chinese, but that is not the same thing as being
mistaken for a native speaker...










Gulao -

I tend to agree with carlo on this. I don't think it's possible for a person to judge their own
fluency in a language. Only a fluent speaker could make this judgement. Some fluent speakers will
make this judgment differently depending on their own fluency level, tolerance and background. For
instance, I could probably have a time and a half talking to a Chinese 10-year-old, and he'd
probably find me no less capable of the language than he is. On the other-hand, a 40-year-old
xenophobic Chinese grammarian would find my American manner and English paradigms to be repulsive,
and label me non-fluent.

And I don't think an ability to "flow" is necessarily the most important part of fluency.
Certainly, a certain speed and rhythm is achievable by fluent speakers, but even the smartest lose
their trains of thought, stumble, slip and even forget vocabulary. I, especially, will pause
indefinitely mid-utterance while I search in vain for that word, the one that will convey just the
right meaning. Does this make me non-fluent in English? I hope not, because it's my first language!










Green Pea -

djwebb,

Learning Chinese is a long, hard road. It will take many, many years with lots of ups and downs.
It's not a linear progression either. You need to create the habit of speaking Chinese, not the
habit of speaking English. Then, one day, you'll wake up one morning and your Chinese level will
have jumped by leaps and bounds.

But, let me quote you from another recent thread:



Quote:

Well, let me first say that I am not one of those foreigners who refuses to speak English or
objects to people coming up and trying to speak English. After all, it's my native language, and
so it is no sweat to say a few words. But as someone else said in this thread, the other side of
this is that it is easy to slip into more English than I had intended.

In my opintion, the reason your Chinese is suffering is because you are not speaking enough
Chinese. You are letting false friends sucker you into speaking English. They trick you into
pretending to speak English poorly and then switch to reasonable English later on. You are trying
for give and take, but your friends are just taking so much that you are embarrassed (your word)
to speak Chinese. They are not your friends. If you came to China to learn Chinese, then you've
got to speak Chinese. You must decide which is more important: learning Chinese or making friends.
If you can find people who are genuinely give and take, then fine. Unfortunately, you are trying
to use them to learn Chinese, too. They are just better at the game than you are.

Now, I have no issue with you using friends to create Chinese speaking and learning opportunities.
The issue is that you need to play the game harder and tougher. You need to recognise it's a game
and don't be the patsy.

This is why I was one of those foreigners who used to refuse to speak English to people. It just
made it easier to avoid the English false friends and created the habit of speaking Chinese. When
I was in my learning stage several years ago, I didn't even respond to "Hello". I do now, because
I am comfortable enough with my level. In other words, there will be plenty of friends to speak
English with AFTER you reach your fluency goals.












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